The most interesting moments of János Pálocska's In-Court Testimony from May 7th, 2013

The most interesting moments in the court testimony of witness János Pálocska - 7. 05.2013.




Prosecutor's question: Actually, neither I nor the court nor the audience are eager to know your personal feelings. We are eager to know the facts. That is, how Tibor Cs****** got into that business?


Witness: You won't be happy if I tell you that part. Perhaps it is not good to talk about this, because it is not in connection with this case. In that investigation, the result of why we are sitting here, and you ask questions from me, a gentleman found me whose name is László B**. When I was on house arrest, he was one investigator. He was transported from somewhere in Buda, from the II or the XII district. He worked at the bicycle stealing department, so he cannot look at the economic cases. That investigator moved to the head of that BKV investigation group where he told me very many things. So he came to Göd, where I live, and I met him in a hotel in Göd. I think there was  a  video record, so I can account for everything through that. So, I will not say anything about Dr. László B**  that cannot be supported.  


He came together with his colleague, or rather I draft more carefully, he wanted to know about the investigator when I was in custody, what he found out, and was this connected to the BKV Ltd. or problems from that time. After that he announced that he had talked with the female judge Dr. …, who is sitting on my case, and that it can be like this or like that. After an on-line article also appeared, I made an incriminatory testimony against Miklós Hagyó, and this is why they canceled my house arrest.


But it is false, and the date is not correct, so it is a very despicable slander. I have never ever seen Miklós Hagyó personally, just here now in the room, and before on the television. And what I said in that testimony, witness testimony, or I do not know how we name this, surely you do not think that it was factual. I gave private detective reports which were not attached to the minute-book. Two days after that, I made my testimony. They doped the printed testimony with big letters into my postbox  




Prosecutor's question: What was the subject of the private detective's report that you gave to the police who are investigating the BKV case?



Witness: I'll say it like this: it was full of information that we can call “slag.” I think they wanted us only to think about the large size of the documents they had written and made, because they wanted to show us how bright they are, and how much can they work...





Prosecutor's question: Do you have these private detective reports?



Witness: I gave what I had to the police, and I gave the other parts to the prosecution. The third part, there were three copies in that case in which I was the suspected.



Prosecutor's question: So the witness testimony from the investigation that you provided for the present case is absolutely from the private detective report?


Witness: Particularly yes. But I said that during that time too, and I also said that to be a witness in such a case is a very responsible thing, but I felt that they built for me that part: that they will arrest Mikklós Hagyó. But I do not want to charge anyone, not the investigator or anyone else. Calmly, if the prosecutor, or anyone in the court, feels that you want to call in that investigator, I will willingly come and tell it his face too. That is what happened during the hearing and how it happened.




The chief judge warns the witness in connection to the said things about the legal consequences of false charges.




Witness: One of these days, I became aware of the next section on the page 32.471., that part of my interrogation at the BRFK, when a comment and a notion were in the private detective report. That was the notion, and that was the comment. I do not know. I cannot propose, but I think there are lawyers who are going to make a motion to hear that László B**.



It was just a comment, an opinion. Someone's opinion, but he has not signed that opinion. He has not said from whom had that come. Particularly and carefully, they threatened me. If I gave it, and they would have known by me. But I did not give it, because they asked me to give it. Particularly they nipped away in Göd.



Yes, in that private detective report there was a not signed notion. But I think, probably they have not left it.




Witness: And they put a pensioned police to the head of the BKV investigative group. Exactly, I do not know his name. He was a tall, bald person with eyeglasses. He could be H**** perhaps, or he had a name like this. I do not remember whom the private detective recorded with a camera in a hotel (...)




Antal Attila, accused no. 3 defendant's observation:


The exercise of the investigative authorities is that they interrogate a witness. Then they announce against whom are they making the proceeding. On 14 April 2010 the procedure was going on against more suspects. Even so, they had not announced that, and according to the signs, the investigators had not recorded that in the minute-book. It has just underlined what Mr. P***** told about the circumstances of the proceeding.


The chief judge expounds János P****** witness testimony that he made during the investigation from the investigative document's volume 46. page 31.475 to page 483 first section.


After the expounding, János P**** witness: That is all of the private detective report, and it's appendix from word to word. But, the appendix is not written like an appendix, but instead as questions. Otherwise, I think the Teve street kept the records for a long time, in the street I argued with this investigator because of that minute-book. (...)





They wrote down as facts and announced that I have to sign it, because the information is from me and the authority obligated me.


I told what I heard. For what I said that I heard, these are my words. Now I can draft carefully, but I told that, it is just like a pub gossip, but there was no alcohol on the table.




Prosecutor's question: You mean, that it is in the private detective's report?


Witness: Dear prosecutor, it's all the private detective report, they made me say the content, or they wrote down and signed without me. We used a part of this private detective report in my case, that which concerned the case. Of where the people were, the private detective made pictures and voice records. We attached these.





Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant:


Please, a little bit louder because my client cannot hear well, and he also wants to hear.





(…) Therefore, the private detective, who I requested to the data collection and to clarify the circumstances, one of his friend knew investigator László B**, who was investigating in the case. (…) I thought, just to give a sense of that, we sat down in the Pólus Thermal Hotel in Göd. There were lawyers, and we checked who collected what.





Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: The private detective found you to meet László B***, or the private detective talked with László B*** before?


Witness: He talked before. They had met many times before that.


Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: Secrecy is in the private detective's scope of duties?

Witness: Yes, but he worked on another case with his friend and he knew László B**. I cannot tell now who is this.



Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: At that time you were under a coercion provision?


Witness: It was house arrest. I could not leave Göd city. That is why we met in Göd.


Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: What did you expect from this meeting?


Witness: Nothing, really nothing. I had no idea what they wanted. I thought that they would be too lazy to work and they have no chance for something, but the police were like this when we sat at the table.


Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: You mean László B**?


Witness: Yes, many heard that. He had a colleague too, István I think, from whom they got a portion of documents for investigation. Accordingly, a big portion of documents that they have to look over or to investigate. They went into a dark room with them and they closed the door. He was like this. So, they had no idea what they had to do. They really waned if the private detective gave them the report with my sanction.  And I said calmly, “Okay, if you really need that, here you are.” Anyway, it contained things he promised, and from whom he extracted that they will unify these cases. Then at last something will happen in that case too.




Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: What happened after that and what were you talking about?


Witness: He asked me to cooperate and let them show. Then I cooperated, and the private detective gave it to him. He read over it, and after came that part when you have to come in. You have to go there. I talked with the judge. The case was at Dr... at the Markó street 25. Before that, he was with another judge, and he finished the case with the third judge at Markó street 25. And I say, they gave me a paper from this. The judge will let me, and then I went in. So they issued everything.

But I would like to underline that they issued everything and they wanted at any rate to produce a testimony from this. However, I could not tell anything else, just what I knew from the report.



Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: Therefore, if I understand correctly, in Göd when you discussed, I am just at this point, so according to what you said, László B** promised you something?


Witness: Yes, he promised, sure. Definitely.




Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: Shortly, I would like to summarize that which László B** promised to you: That he will help you in the criminal procedure, what you initiated?


Witness: That's it.




Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: And how did it happen when they heard you on 14 April 2010 in the Teve street? Who called you in?


Witness: That Dr. László B** and his colleagues.


Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: How did the interview take place when you got in?


Witness: They said what the private detective report contains, because I gave it to the investigation authority, and because of that they would record it in a minute-book. So I thought that they will write down what they received at that time, and when I delivered. Pooh! They wrote everything that was in that report. They wrote the appendix as a notion of the private detective. They also wrote down that as my testimony. After that, it appeared on the Internet.



Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: Mr. P*****, according to this, your testimony is not your testimony. So it is the private detective's report that they put into a minute-book?


Witness: That's it.




Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: So it turns out that it is the private detective's report inserted as your testimony?



Look, I do not know who is that Ottó  L*******and Ottó L******* name is in the private detective's report, and the interrogation turned into a serious argument when I had to sign that because the investigators stated that I gave it. This is my information. This the information that I brought and I do not want to sign it. Then they would have initiated a proceeding against me, from which I already have four in my head. I cannot answer the question, only with an vague reply. I am sorry.




Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: Who found you when they wanted to interrogate you?


Witness: Dr. László B** and his colleague, some kind of István.


Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: Did he appear in your interrogation?


Witness: No.




Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: According to the minute-book, we cannot know if it happened at Rómer Flóris street or at Teve street, but probably it happened in the Teve street because the Rómer Flóris street is crossed over. I also find that it finished earlier than it began. But about the content: Did they follow the same method as at your first interrogation?


Witness: That's it.


Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: So, if I understand correctly, they  used the private detective report text as your testimony?


Witness: Mr Defender! A notion is written from something and someone's sentences, and after that they recorded it in the minute-book.


Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: According to this, what you said about Miklós Hagyó is directly and indirectly true. Or is it not?


Witness: I am not police. I do not know.


Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: You do not know him?


Witness: This is the first time in my life that I have seen him in person. I have seen him only on the television.




Question from Lawyer of Miklós Hagyó, primary defendant: I see. So I do not know how, but later it  turned out for you that the reality of the information in the minute-book is doubtful?


Witness: Yes, this is the correct composition. I looked after that word.




Question from Lawyer of Lelovics Ottó, defendant no. V: So, we can say that, in that minute-book, what you stated completely contains the private detective's report? Ottó Lelovics's name got into it not from your information?


Witness: It is written in the private detective's report, and I cannot tell you who is Ottó Lelovics. So, not because of the police's inspiration, it was in the private detective report. I do not know Ottó Lelovics. I have never seen him, and I only know of him from what I read in the private detective report.




Question from Lawyer of Éva Mátay-Horváth, defendant no. VI:  Do you know Éva Horváth? Or her name is familiar for you? Haven't you met her?


Witness: Never.




Witness: The thing turned into a serious argument, also because I wanted to finish a very important thing. But, I really do not want to bore anyone. The man who was put into the head of the investigative group, they called him back from the pension. He was a bald beefy man. He was at the picture and voice recording session with the persons who put me into prison.




Witness: It was a popular thing. Everybody talked about that. Who is who? Who must be arrested? The investigator also didn't hold back that he wanted to arrest Miklós Hagyó. He said that the aim was that, and they will arrest him. It was a decided thing, so he said things like this. I compose carefully, because I do not want to charge anyone, but I think that you will call in that László B** after all. So I feel that will be the last time when I will sit here. It is sure that you will confront me with him, and I will calmly tell more than I told now. Particularly what kind of things were said. Call him calmly. What a check they did in that case.




Question from Lawyer of Éva Mátay-Horváth, defendant no. VI:  My question is only this: So the private detective's report was on the investigator's table, and what he thought was important, he particularly copied into the the minute-book? Did he choose the parts?


Witness: That's it, exactly, in the second part of the minute-book. What they inserted into the minute-book. What the lawyer also offered. When it began and finished. I did not specifically know what was going on. I checked it. That's it. If the story is finished, it's over.


Question from Lawyer of László Mátay, defendant no. XII: You said there, during your testimony, that this private detective's report contained a lot of disinformation and frills. From what have you based your opinion?


Witness: There were parts that were absolutely false.



- Hungarian version: